Speaking-Japanese.com - Exploring Japanese Literature

Patriotism: Online Discussion

This story is so intense, that like it or loathe it, indifference is simply not an option.

To get the ball rolling, I have posted a few questions and comments of my own. Feel free to respond to these or to post any comments and questions you may have.

Patriotism: 72 entries on 8 pages. Page viewing: 7

12 » Michael Staley	Tokyo	Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 12:29:17
Brandon, thank you for your interest in Breaking into Japanese Literature and Exploring Japanese Literature. My name is Michael Staley, and I was the editor of these books. I'm very pleased that you are reading them. Let me try to answer your questions about the classical forms in Exploring: "Yuukoku," there is the line: "...kougun aiuchi no jitai hisshi to naritaru jousei ni tsuufun (s)hite..." --> "taru" is the noun-modifying form of the classical "tari." "Tari" has a few meanings, but here it indicates that the action of "becoming" ("naru") has been completed. So "to naritaru" is equivalent to the modern "to natta" or "to natte shimatta." "Naru" is in this form "nari" (the ren'youkei form) because that's the form that "tari" attaches to when it attaches to verbs. I hope this makes sense. Mishima, for instance, writes: "...Reiko fujin mo mata fukun ni jun jite jijin wo togetari." --> This is the same "tari." Here, too, it expresses completion. Think of "togetari" as modern "togeta." This "tari" is not in the ren'youkei but in the shuushikei (ending form, or "dictionary form," if you will), though its ren'youkei also happens to be "tari" (sometimes "to"). Also, there is: "...'gunjin no tsuma to (s)hite kitaru beki hi ga mairimashita' unnun to kiseri." --> "Kiseri" breaks down as follows: Mizenkei (think of this as the negative [-nai] stem) of the classical verb "kisu" (modern "kisuru"), followed by the classical form "ri," which again expresses completion. ("Ri" is in its shuushikei form.) So "kiseri" is equivalent to "kishita" (I think!). Both "ri" and "tari" can also have "-te iru" and "-te aru" meanings in the sense that a state is in effect as a result of some action. Perhaps you also wouldn't mind explaining the use of "nashi" and "nari." --> Re these, and the other examples from Akutagawa, if you could give me page numbers, I'll make a stab at it. Michael Staley

11 » Giles Murray		Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 12:02:48
I always divide the business of translation into two stages. First there's the mechanical, hard-labor stage which involves quarrying out English in inchoate lumps. Then comes the much more enjoyable stage of carving and shaping those rugged rocks into elegant English. Before setting about this second stage, I usually decide on a few English authors whose style should inform the translation and try to absorb their tone. With Tanizaki, that might be Oscar Wilde, Nabokov, Saki, or any writer in a state of permanent effervescence through an excess of wit and joie de vivre. If you were translating Patriotism, what English-language models would you choose in English? My recipe would probably be Henry V, John Donne—and a selection of lurid pornographic magazines, even romance novels! Perhaps Leni Riefenstahl's films would also be a suitable mood-maker. Let me know your ideas.

10 » Brandon Floyd	South Carolina	Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 09:03:39
I think that a lot of the difficulty that I encounter when I try to read real Japanese stems from the use of classical forms. Mishima seems exceptionally fond of them. I have never seen these forms (excepting -zu) explained in any of the three textbooks that I used in college. It has already become clear to me that I'm probably going to have to purchase a text on classical Japanese in order to completely do away with my troubles. From what little I've read on the subject, I know that classical morphology is considerably more extensive than that of the modern language, and my head is already about to burst from the memorization of Latin and Greek declensions and conjugations. I'm sure you understand, being a classicist yourself. Of course, colloquial forms are also a problem. Any suggestions from an experienced translator? Reply: Brandon I was amused to see that in the introduction to his recent Penguin collection of translated Akutagawa short stories, the first person Jay Rubin thanked was his wife, and that was not just for the usual being supportive, tolerant etc. Combining this with my own experience, I'm inclined to think that lots of translators use their spouses (or sometimes random Japanese passers-by) as the ultimate interactive dictionary. I did acquire a big specialized Japanese dictionary which also listed various odd endings and things for this project. In my study it sits just behind my left ankle, but here in Bangkok I can't recall the name. Again, I shall e-mail my omniscient editor, who is responsible for Kodansha's Communicative English-Japanese Dictionary among other things, and I'm sure he can recommend some good texts. Of course, the least labor intensive approach is that of Bruce Lee: "Don't think, feel." (I'm not being completely facetious here. For example, in the first couple of pages of Patriotism, without knowing what the endings signify, one can sense their weight, resonance and general gravitas.) If you are a truly hardcore philological masochist, I recommend the Tanizaki story, especially the letters in it. They'll have you tearing your hair out! Giles

9 » Brandon Floyd	South Carolina	Date: 09.12.2007 Time: 14:51:28
Page 207: Or is it anthropopathism? Honestly, I think I'm confused now. Reply: Me too!

8 » Giles Murray	Bangkok	Date: 09.12.2007 Time: 12:54:10
Did anyone see Doris Lessing's remark in her Nobel acceptance prize about the "Internet, which has seduced a whole generation into its inanities."? Let us give ourselves a pat on the back for putting the Web to non-inane uses!!

7 » Brandon Floyd	South Carolina	Date: 08.12.2007 Time: 18:04:54
While I wait for your reply, I'll try answering some of the questions that you posted. PAGE 121: I found your translation very interesting. Geoffrey Sargent rendered the Japanese more soberly as: "I knew nothing. They hadn’t asked me to join. Perhaps out of consideration, because I was newly married." The attitude of your Takeyama approaches upon nonchalance. I think, though, that this is natural for you since in an earlier post, you stated: "Surely treating death as a performance art, as Mishima himself did, is grotesquely selfish, the height of narcissism." I believe you wanted to emphasize the fact that, in your mind, neither the author nor his character took the notion of ritual suicide seriously enough. You felt that neither fully understood the absolute finality of death, and the true gruesomeness of the honorable means by which they would both meet their end. Your opinion is especially well illustrated by the line: "Right-ho then, let's do the deed together." Takeyama's asking his wife to join him is the height of the grotesque selfishness of which you spoke, and the "Right-ho then" perfectly captures his youthful gung-ho naivety. PAGE 189: I suspect that your editor had a problem with the use of "somehow" in your sentence. He probably recommended that you use "somewhat" instead. I suppose, in American English, "somehow" is generally used only to mean "by some means." PAGE 207: The device is personification, as "gaining confidence" is something that only a person can do. Reply: Brandon Page 121: I do a certain amount of work in advertising, marketing etc. in Japan, and I'm always struck by how genteel female interpreters (and nearly all interpreters outside the world of politics are female) can castrate and enfeeble the coarse vigor of Japanese male speech. On top of this, the Japanese in general tend to be perceived as polite (almost washed out) and rather robotic. I therefore wanted my officer to sound gruff, bluff, coarse, crass, callow, shallow - boyish and oyaji-like at the same time. I deliberately gave him a sort of Bertie Wooster-ish, Bulldog Drummond-esque, or WWII RAF, "Right-ho chaps" idiom to convey my sense of his being merely a product of his time, as well as an expression of Mishima's loathsome narcissism. So, your comments are 100% on the mark. Oh, and something else occurred to me. I was determined not to be "reverential" towards Mishima or seppuku, or Japanese culture in general. I think an excess of unquestioning respect and reverence can lead to a slightly dead tone in translations. In the immediate postwar period, I think some translators felt they were carrying the torch for Japanese culture (or its rehabilitation) and everything had to have some sort of solemn and absolute value and be a rare and precious pearl from the Orient. I don't! Page 189. Actually the word we disagreed over was "blessed." This has become a commonplace in America and is really used as an Oprah-esque synonym for "lucky." In British English it is used far more sparingly, still retains some religious overtones and is devoid of any treacly sentimentality. Page 207. Or is it anthropomorphism? Other: My editor, Michael Staley, is going to answer your previous question next week and also give you details about a new bilingual reader they're coming out with soon. I really appreciate your comments and your close reading of the text. Thanks so very much!

6 » Brandon Floyd	South Carolina	Date: 06.12.2007 Time: 06:10:02
I would like first, Mr. Murray, to thank you for creating "Breaking into Japanese Literature" and "Exploring Japanese Literature." Your approach is very much like that of Clyde Pharr in his "Vergil's Aeneid" and just as his book did, yours make reading sophisticated works of literature possible at even the intermediate level of language study. There simply aren't enough good learning tools like these out on the market. In reply to your early post, I will say that I too found "Yuukoku" to be completely captivating when I first read it in translation. As you pointed out, its blend of sex, blood, and strict militaristic honor are very powerful and seem very powerfully Japanese. Say what you will about the rightness or wrongness of Mishima's ideas (and ideals), there is no doubt that he was an extraordinary writer. I have two problems for you, one of which concerns an archaic form that often shows up in Japanese literature, and the other of which I suppose deals mostly with style. The archaic form to which I am referring is "-taru." Several of the vignettes in Akutagawa's "Yabu no Naka" begin with: "Kebi'ishi ni towaretaru..." Also, in the first chapter of Mishima's "Yuukoku," there is the line: "...kougun aiuchi no jitai hisshi to naritaru jousei ni tsuufun (s)hite..." I am somewhat confused as to how it is formed and what exactly it means; for instance, in Akutagawa, it seems that "towareta" would have served exactly the same purpose. The stylistic issue with which I am having trouble is the termination of a sentence with a verb in the ren'youkei form (or so it seems to me). Mishima, for instance, writes: "...Reiko fujin mo mata fukun ni jun jite jijin wo togetari." Also, there is: "...'gunjin no tsuma to (s)hite kitaru beki hi ga mairimashita' unnun to kiseri." Perhaps you also wouldn't mind explaining the use of "nashi" and "nari." Thank you Note: I had to use "(s)hite" above in order for it to let me post. Reply: Hello Brandon Thanks for your posting and sorry for my less-than-instant reply. It's altogether appropriate you should compare the book to Clyde Pharr's Aeneid, because I actually majored in Classics, though I favored impenetrable prose authors like Sallust, Tacitus and Ammianus Marcellinus over the poets. In fact, I was very flattered when Martin Lam, the author of Kanji From the Start (and another classicist), described Breaking into Japanese Literature as a "Loeb on steroids," as I was always big fan of the bilingual Loeb Classics series. Anyway, please give me and the brain trust a few days to deal with your question and we will post a reply. I think Kodansha is about to produce another literature reading book with child prodigy (all right, 30-year-old) translator Michael Emmerich, so I'll see if I can find any details about that too.

5 » Steve Sherman MD	Los Angeles, California	Date: 08.10.2007 Time: 16:09:35
Giles, Thanks for great book with material from Kawabata, Mishima, and Tanizaki. Been translating J-E medical/pharmaceutical for a long time. Reading something like Mishima (Yukoku) is like learning Japanese all over again. Glad you have brought out books like this and your first one "Breaking into Japanese Literature." Appreciate your efforts. Steve Reply: Hi Steve Thank you for your very kind comment. I'm sure that if you can deal with Japanese medical terminology on a daily basis, Mishima et al. must have few terrors for you - -- plus knowing the names of organs is very handy when reading stories in which they tend to spill out on to the protagonist's lap!

4 » Giles Murray	Roppongi	Date: 02.10.2007 Time: 09:30:24
I found a very interesting and discursive essay on Mishima at: http://www.borderlandsejournal.adelaide.edu.au/vol2no2_2003/chan_mishima.htm

3 » Giles Murray		Date: 15.09.2007 Time: 21:36:04
I found this story absolutely entrancing when I first read it when I was at Japanese school in Tokyo in my early twenties. In part this must be because it conformed to various images of Japan I had held since I was a child (sudden violence, militarism, subordinate women, florid language). I think the less experience of sex and death one has, the more appealing a story it is. Surely treating death as a performance art, as Mishima himself did, is grotesquely selfish, the height of narcissism. I followed your advice about YouTube and enjoyed the extracts from the Paul Schrader film, very stately and deliberate but not at all one-dimensional as a lot of literary adaptations can be. It was interesting to hear Mishima's voice in English interviews too. He sounded slightly camp to me.

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