| 13 » Brandon Floyd | South Carolina  |
Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 20:08:03 |
In response to Post 11 concerning translation: Translation is indeed a very tricky business. I remember, when I was a child, I believed that foreign languages were essentially English in different words, i.e. that all words in English had exact counterparts in other languages. I am often amused now when I think back on my ignorance, but sometimes, I admit, I almost wish things were that simple. I find that my method of translation differs greatly depending on whether I am translating from Latin or Japanese. Of course, Latin is an Indo-European language, so, despite all its deep morphological complexity and its substantial differences from English, it still constitutes much more familiar ground than Japanese, a language with virtually no connection to English at all. When I look at a Latin sentence, I can break it up into participles, infinitives, gerunds, relative pronouns, etc; although these elements are highly inflected in Latin, they are all present in English as well. A Latin sentence properly parsed, and translated word for word will indeed often make sense in English, even if the product is unidiomatic. Consider the following lines from Book I of Vergil's Aeneid with the English translation of each word written underneath the Latin: Karthago, Italiam contra Tiberinaque longe Carthage,/ Italy / opposite/ and [from the] Tiber's/ far ostia, dives opum studiisque asperrima belli; mouths,/ rich/ of resources/ and in desires/ fiercest/ of war quam Juno fertur terris magis omnibus unam which/ Juno/ is said/ [than] the lands/ more/ all / one posthabita coluisse Samo... held after/ to have valued/ Samos... If we parse the English and change it up a bit, we get: Carthage, opposite Italy and far from the Tiber's mouths, rich in resources and fiercest in desire(s) for war, which one Juno is said to have valued more than all the earth, Samos [being] esteemed less. Note that, despite some of the changes I made, this is still very literal (and entirely devoid of the music and elegance of the original). However, it represents what for me would be a starting point, and as merely a starting point, it is a very good one. Note well that even the ablative absolute, "posthabita...Samo" can be rendered very closely through the English nominative absolute "Samos [being] esteemed less." It is remarkable really how little I had to change in order to make it work. My Japanese example will be much shorter, as it doesn't require much to prove my point. Consider a sentence from Akutagawa's "Yabu no Naka" diagrammed in the same manner as the Latin above: 場所 は 関山 から 山科 へ 参ろう The place/as for/Sekiyama/ from/ Yamashina/ to/ would go と いう 途中 で ございます。 /that/ say/ midway point/ being/ is(i.e. exists). It is immediately clear that translating from Japanese is, as they say, a whole 'nother ball game. The phrase "Sekiyama kara Yamashina e mairou to iuu tochuu" is especially troublesome, and damn near impossible to render literally in English. The "to iuu" above could even be misleading if translated literally as "[one] says that" or "[they] say that"; in the sentence above "to iuu", as is often the case, functions to complete the relative clause, conferring the qualities of the phrase "Sekiyama kara Yamashina e mairou" onto "tochuu". The literal meaning is still there, but "to iuu" must, in my opinion, be thought of very "loosely," if you will. My experience with Japanese allows me to grasp the meaning of this sentence fairly quickly, but even to gain a starting point for the English translation, I must rethink and rewrite the whole thing. The notion of choosing English-language models for the sake of emulation is interesting to me. I am certainly with you on using Henry V; its elevated and nationalistic tone, and its high praise of military valor are right up Mishima's alley. Indeed, I can almost picture Mishima's Takeyama superimposed on Olivier in his classic film adaptation, yelling his fearless, ecstatic "Once more unto the breach, dear friends" in the middle of the surrounding frenzy of the battlefield. I might also recommend using "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" for ideas. Gawain's sense of honor, and his intense shame on finding that he has violated it, are in some ways parallel to the events in Mishima's story. "Beowulf" might also provide some inspiration. It represents the austerity and ruthlessness of a violent, militaristic age gone by and surely would have had some appeal to Mishima, who seemed to want to turn his own country's clock back five hundred years or so. As far as the romantic scenes are concerned, I would steer clear of pornographic magazines, as I think the writing found within is often puerile at best. Well written romance novels might suffice though. This may seem like a strange choice, but I think Stanley Kubrick's films could offer something in the way of what I perceive to be his coldness towards humanity, which at times borders on misanthropy; I often sense something similar in Mishima's writing. Well, I suppose I've bored you long enough with this epic post, so I'll conclude with the opening line of Henry V, and one of my favorite Shakespearian openings: "O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention." May all we translators and aspiring translators find our own Muse in times of difficulty. Reply: Brandon, |
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| 12 » Michael Staley | Tokyo  |
Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 12:29:17 |
Brandon, thank you for your interest in Breaking into Japanese Literature and Exploring Japanese Literature. My name is Michael Staley, and I was the editor of these books. I'm very pleased that you are reading them. Let me try to answer your questions about the classical forms in Exploring: "Yuukoku," there is the line: "...kougun aiuchi no jitai hisshi to naritaru jousei ni tsuufun (s)hite..." --> "taru" is the noun-modifying form of the classical "tari." "Tari" has a few meanings, but here it indicates that the action of "becoming" ("naru") has been completed. So "to naritaru" is equivalent to the modern "to natta" or "to natte shimatta." "Naru" is in this form "nari" (the ren'youkei form) because that's the form that "tari" attaches to when it attaches to verbs. I hope this makes sense. Mishima, for instance, writes: "...Reiko fujin mo mata fukun ni jun jite jijin wo togetari." --> This is the same "tari." Here, too, it expresses completion. Think of "togetari" as modern "togeta." This "tari" is not in the ren'youkei but in the shuushikei (ending form, or "dictionary form," if you will), though its ren'youkei also happens to be "tari" (sometimes "to"). Also, there is: "...'gunjin no tsuma to (s)hite kitaru beki hi ga mairimashita' unnun to kiseri." --> "Kiseri" breaks down as follows: Mizenkei (think of this as the negative [-nai] stem) of the classical verb "kisu" (modern "kisuru"), followed by the classical form "ri," which again expresses completion. ("Ri" is in its shuushikei form.) So "kiseri" is equivalent to "kishita" (I think!). Both "ri" and "tari" can also have "-te iru" and "-te aru" meanings in the sense that a state is in effect as a result of some action. Perhaps you also wouldn't mind explaining the use of "nashi" and "nari." --> Re these, and the other examples from Akutagawa, if you could give me page numbers, I'll make a stab at it. Michael Staley |
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| 11 » Giles Murray | Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 12:02:48 | |
I always divide the business of translation into two stages. First there's the mechanical, hard-labor stage which involves quarrying out English in inchoate lumps. Then comes the much more enjoyable stage of carving and shaping those rugged rocks into elegant English. Before setting about this second stage, I usually decide on a few English authors whose style should inform the translation and try to absorb their tone. With Tanizaki, that might be Oscar Wilde, Nabokov, Saki, or any writer in a state of permanent effervescence through an excess of wit and joie de vivre. If you were translating Patriotism, what English-language models would you choose in English? My recipe would probably be Henry V, John Donne—and a selection of lurid pornographic magazines, even romance novels! Perhaps Leni Riefenstahl's films would also be a suitable mood-maker. Let me know your ideas. 
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| 10 » Brandon Floyd | South Carolina |
Date: 10.12.2007 Time: 09:03:39 |
I think that a lot of the difficulty that I encounter when I try to read real Japanese stems from the use of classical forms. Mishima seems exceptionally fond of them. I have never seen these forms (excepting -zu) explained in any of the three textbooks that I used in college. It has already become clear to me that I'm probably going to have to purchase a text on classical Japanese in order to completely do away with my troubles. From what little I've read on the subject, I know that classical morphology is considerably more extensive than that of the modern language, and my head is already about to burst from the memorization of Latin and Greek declensions and conjugations. I'm sure you understand, being a classicist yourself. Of course, colloquial forms are also a problem. Any suggestions from an experienced translator? Reply: Brandon |
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| 9 » Brandon Floyd | South Carolina |
Date: 09.12.2007 Time: 14:51:28 |
Page 207: Or is it anthropopathism? Honestly, I think I'm confused now. Reply: Me too! |
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| 8 » Giles Murray | Bangkok | Date: 09.12.2007 Time: 12:54:10 |
Did anyone see Doris Lessing's remark in her Nobel acceptance prize about the "Internet, which has seduced a whole generation into its inanities."? Let us give ourselves a pat on the back for putting the Web to non-inane uses!! 
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| 7 » Brandon Floyd | South Carolina |
Date: 08.12.2007 Time: 18:04:54 |
While I wait for your reply, I'll try answering some of the questions that you posted. PAGE 121: I found your translation very interesting. Geoffrey Sargent rendered the Japanese more soberly as: "I knew nothing. They hadn’t asked me to join. Perhaps out of consideration, because I was newly married." The attitude of your Takeyama approaches upon nonchalance. I think, though, that this is natural for you since in an earlier post, you stated: "Surely treating death as a performance art, as Mishima himself did, is grotesquely selfish, the height of narcissism." I believe you wanted to emphasize the fact that, in your mind, neither the author nor his character took the notion of ritual suicide seriously enough. You felt that neither fully understood the absolute finality of death, and the true gruesomeness of the honorable means by which they would both meet their end. Your opinion is especially well illustrated by the line: "Right-ho then, let's do the deed together." Takeyama's asking his wife to join him is the height of the grotesque selfishness of which you spoke, and the "Right-ho then" perfectly captures his youthful gung-ho naivety. PAGE 189: I suspect that your editor had a problem with the use of "somehow" in your sentence. He probably recommended that you use "somewhat" instead. I suppose, in American English, "somehow" is generally used only to mean "by some means." PAGE 207: The device is personification, as "gaining confidence" is something that only a person can do. Reply: Brandon |
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| 6 » Brandon Floyd | South Carolina |
Date: 06.12.2007 Time: 06:10:02 |
I would like first, Mr. Murray, to thank you for creating "Breaking into Japanese Literature" and "Exploring Japanese Literature." Your approach is very much like that of Clyde Pharr in his "Vergil's Aeneid" and just as his book did, yours make reading sophisticated works of literature possible at even the intermediate level of language study. There simply aren't enough good learning tools like these out on the market. In reply to your early post, I will say that I too found "Yuukoku" to be completely captivating when I first read it in translation. As you pointed out, its blend of sex, blood, and strict militaristic honor are very powerful and seem very powerfully Japanese. Say what you will about the rightness or wrongness of Mishima's ideas (and ideals), there is no doubt that he was an extraordinary writer. I have two problems for you, one of which concerns an archaic form that often shows up in Japanese literature, and the other of which I suppose deals mostly with style. The archaic form to which I am referring is "-taru." Several of the vignettes in Akutagawa's "Yabu no Naka" begin with: "Kebi'ishi ni towaretaru..." Also, in the first chapter of Mishima's "Yuukoku," there is the line: "...kougun aiuchi no jitai hisshi to naritaru jousei ni tsuufun (s)hite..." I am somewhat confused as to how it is formed and what exactly it means; for instance, in Akutagawa, it seems that "towareta" would have served exactly the same purpose. The stylistic issue with which I am having trouble is the termination of a sentence with a verb in the ren'youkei form (or so it seems to me). Mishima, for instance, writes: "...Reiko fujin mo mata fukun ni jun jite jijin wo togetari." Also, there is: "...'gunjin no tsuma to (s)hite kitaru beki hi ga mairimashita' unnun to kiseri." Perhaps you also wouldn't mind explaining the use of "nashi" and "nari." Thank you Note: I had to use "(s)hite" above in order for it to let me post. Reply: Hello Brandon |
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| 5 » Steve Sherman MD | Los Angeles, California |
Date: 08.10.2007 Time: 16:09:35 |
Giles, Thanks for great book with material from Kawabata, Mishima, and Tanizaki. Been translating J-E medical/pharmaceutical for a long time. Reading something like Mishima (Yukoku) is like learning Japanese all over again. Glad you have brought out books like this and your first one "Breaking into Japanese Literature." Appreciate your efforts. Steve Reply: Hi Steve |
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