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Patriotism: Online Discussion
This story is so intense, that like it or loathe it, indifference is simply not an option.

To get the ball rolling, I have posted a few questions and comments of my own. Feel free to respond to these or to post any comments and questions you may have.

Patriotism: 72 entries on 8 pages. Page viewing: 4
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42 » Brandon      South Carolina     Date: 25.03.2008 Time: 01:55:08

So Giles, how would you translate 由紀夫?

I've been working through Patriotism again in Japanese and taking notes, so I'll probably have some questions and criticisms for you soon.

By the way, I look forward to hearing your opinion of Temple of the Golden Pavilion once you've finished reading the novel. I read your earlier post, but I'll wait until you're done to post my reply.

Thanks again to Michael Staley for his answers to my questions. I'm soon going to put in an inter-library loan request for a classical Japanese grammar, so maybe I won't have to bother him so much in the future. I'm planning to post a summary of what I've learned thus far about the classical forms later this week.
Reply: Maybe we could translate his name (in a slightly American-Indian manner, but still appropriately) as "Man of Catastrophic Narratives," or "Man of Grim Tales." If we wanted to be nicer, we could call him just "Man of Stories."

If you post something that persuades me it's worth slogging on to the end, I might read all of TOTGP, but otherwise...
41 » Brandon      South Carolina     Date: 23.03.2008 Time: 02:26:31

I think I've figured out some of the classical forms that appear in Patriotism, but I'd like to have Mr. Staley take a look just to make sure (I know he explained some of these to me in an earlier post, but there are several new examples).

加入せること (kanyuu + mizenkei of su + rentaikei of ri + koto)

なりたる情勢 (ren'youkei of naru + rentaikei of tari + jousei)

遂げたり (ren'youkei of togeru + shuushikei of tari)

記せり (ki + mizenkei of su + shuushikei of ri)

鬼神をして哭かしむの概あり (mizenkei of naku + shuushikei of shimu + no gai + shuushikei of ari)
**Is the shuushikei used before the particle の?
**Is it common to see をして marking the object of a causative verb in classical Japanese (or modern, for that matter)?

挙げしより (ren'youkei of ageru + rentaikei of ki + yori)
**Should the rentaikei be used before yori? Izenkei?

充たざりき (mizenkei of mitsu + ren'youkei of zu + shuushikei of ki)

例えん方もない
**perhaps from 例えの方もない?

それが明日来るかも知れぬ (mizenkei of kamoshireru + rentaikei of zu)
**I don't know whether kamoshireru is ever used; I've only seen kamoshirenai.
**Why would the rentaikei be used to end a sentence?
**What does kamoshirenai literally mean? It seems to be composed of two elements: kamo and the negative of shireru.

うろたえぬ覚悟(mizenkei of urotaeru + rentaikei of zu + kakugo)

妻たる者 (tsuma + rentaikei of tari + mono)

いつなんどきでも
**The meaning is "whenever, anytime" I suppose.

This last one is unrelated, but how would you translate 由紀夫 of Mishima's name?

Many thanks in advance smile
Reply: Brandon,

Michael here. Let me try to answer your questions.

加入せること (kanyuu + mizenkei of su + rentaikei of ri + koto)
--> CORRECT.

なりたる情勢 (ren'youkei of naru + rentaikei of tari + jousei)
--> CORRECT

遂げたり (ren'youkei of togeru + shuushikei of tari)
--> CORRECT

記せり (ki + mizenkei of su + shuushikei of ri)
--> CORRECT

鬼神をして哭かしむの概あり (mizenkei of naku + shuushikei of shimu + no gai + shuushikei of ari)
--> CORRECT
**Is the shuushikei used before the particle の?

--> No, the rentaikei is used before の, so technically this should be 哭かしむるの概あり. I don't have an explanation for why しむ is in the shuushikei in this sentence.

**Is it common to see をして marking the object of a causative verb in classical Japanese (or modern, for that matter)?

--> をして used in this way is certainly not uncommon even in modern Japanese. There was a sentence in a piece by Machida Kou in our new book, Read Real Japanese Essays (edited by Janet Ashby), that goes as follows:

しかし諦めるのはまだ早やい。そんな人間性の腐ったあなたでも、読
者をして、なんとなくよい人だ、と思わしむる方法がある。

Machida is giving a piece of advice on how to come across as a good person in one's writing simply by tweaking one's sentence endings from plain form to desu/masu form. Anyway, see how he uses the pattern 読者をして . . . と思わしむ ("cause the reader to think ...")? He does this for humorous effect. The note to this sentence goes as follows:

"読者をして . . . と思わしむ = 読者に . . . と思わせる. しむ is a remnant of classical Japanese, equivalent to the causative せる/させる; it is in its noun-modifying form, しむる, because it modifies 方法. The をして is also classical, and is equivalent to に or を."

挙げしより (ren'youkei of ageru + rentaikei of ki + yori)
--> CORRECT
**Should the rentaikei be used before yori? Izenkei?
--> Yes, the rentaikei should be used before yori.

充たざりき (mizenkei of mitsu + ren'youkei of zu + shuushikei of ki)
--> CORRECT.

例えん方もない
**perhaps from 例えの方もない?

--> The ん is the same as classical む, used to express intention, but it's hard to give a replaceable modern equivalent for it. 例えん方もない means something like 例えようとしてもできない.

それが明日来るかも知れぬ (mizenkei of kamoshireru + rentaikei of zu)
**I don't know whether kamoshireru is ever used; I've only seen kamoshirenai.

--> I've never heard "kamoshireru" either. Kamoshirenai is a fixed phrase.

**Why would the rentaikei be used to end a sentence?

--> Good question. Perhaps ことだ is being omitted from this sentence (and the next one), leaving only the rentaikei.

**What does kamoshirenai literally mean? It seems to be composed of two elements: kamo and the negative of shireru.

--> Ka + mo (= one cannot know for sure, but the possibility exists) + shirenai (= it is not known; it is unknowable). If that helps.

うろたえぬ覚悟(mizenkei of urotaeru + rentaikei of zu + kakugo)
--> CORRECT

妻たる者 (tsuma + rentaikei of tari + mono)
--> CORRECT

いつなんどきでも
**The meaning is "whenever, anytime" I suppose.
--> いつなんどき is a more emphatic form of いつ, so いつなんどきでも is a more emphatic form of いつでも, I suppose.
40 » Giles      Tokyo     Date: 22.03.2008 Time: 10:05:45

I came across an interesting epigram on the subject of tenses yesterday. "In Ireland we don't have the present or the future tense, just the endless repetition of past mistakes."
39 » Brandon      South Carolina     Date: 21.03.2008 Time: 23:49:06

Here are some examples of the historical present in Japanese:

夏目漱石の「夢十夜」の「第五夜」

敵の大将は、弓の真中を右の手で握って、その弓を草の上へ突いて、酒甕を伏せたようなものの上に腰を掛けていた。その顔を見ると、鼻の上で、左右の眉が太く接続っている。

Note: Soseki gives the compound 接続, which is normally read setsuzoku, the reading tsunaga.ru

夏目漱石の「夢十夜」の「第一夜」

真白な頬の底に温かい血の色が程よく差して、唇の色は無論赤い。到底死にそうには見えない。しかし女は静かな声で、もう死にますとはっきりいった。自分も確かにこれは死ぬなと思った。

芥川龍之介の「藪の中」の「多襄丸の白状」

あの男を殺したのはわたしです。しかし女は殺しはしません。

To Mr. Staley: I haven't found any examples of this in Patriotism yet; Mishima seems to use the past forms consistently.
38 » Giles Murray      Tokyo     Date: 19.03.2008 Time: 20:15:16

Regarding Brandon's posting (32) and Tim's posting (29)

As promised, I started re-reading "The Temple of the Golden Pavilion." Let me give you my impressions from just the first third of the book. I warn you, they're hardly positive.

First off, let's see what stock Mishima motifs we've got. To start with, the narrator, a puny stutterer, has the standard issue "aussenseitergefuhl" (outsider feeling) of so many Mishima protagonists; he also has delusions of grandeur ("I saw myself as a stuttering taciturn tyrant," "I fancied myself as a great artist"). By a convenient coincidence, he shares his creator's enthusiasm for men in uniform and the smell of their secretions (the visiting cadet from the naval engineering college with his sweaty undershirt); he revels in death as a spectacle (the shooting of Uiko by her deserter lover), while his own father's passing merely serves to confirm to him that he is alive, otherwise leaving him cold; he despises his own mother with her "small, cunning eyes" and "ugly" face. He is an occasional voyeur (I'm thinking of the gratuitous scene of the woman in the temple flavoring the soldier's tea with milk from her own breast). He enjoys performing sadistic acts (he "can't forget the sweetness of the moment" after stepping on the belly of a prostitute and inducing a miscarriage); he has masochistic tendencies ("derision and insult please me far more than sympathy"), and generally prefers things unpleasant to pleasant—"It was quite natural that wars and unrest, piles of corpses and copious blood, should enrich the beauty of the golden temple." After the factory he works in is bombed and a fellow worker's guts spill out, he innocently asks "What is so ghastly about exposed intestines?" Answer: Nothing if you're the sort of person who get your kicks dying that way!

The world that Graham Greene conjured up in his novels—exotic but seedy locales populated by a cast of the cynical, the world-weary, the corrupt or the dangerously idealistic—was given the collective nickname Greeneland. Well, in "The Temple of the Golden Pavilion," we certainly know we're back in Mishimaville. It's that familiar sterile world without love, affection, warmth, humor, kindness (or naturalistic dialogue, for that matter), but with all sorts of nastiness (the emotional dysfunctionality, masochism, sadism, delight in destruction etc. listed above). If Mishima had any psychological insight, it must be into the the abnormal, not the normal mind. Surely it is revealing that he wrote a play called "My Friend Hitler" about the man who was the last word in destructive nihilism.

Perhaps there's a case to be made for Mishima as an "outsider artist," like Henry Darger?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSzzirIP0No

However, I do like "The Sound of Waves" and certain Mishima short stories, where darkness is used sparingly and for effect, rather than being crushingly all-pervasive.

biggrin biggrin biggrin
37 » Brandon Floyd      South Carolina     Date: 18.03.2008 Time: 16:25:51

I just found out while browsing the web site that the Criterion Collection will be releasing both Schrader's "Mishima" and Mishima's own adaptation of "Patriotism". Anyone in the US who has been wanting to see these films would probably do best to wait for these releases in June, as the Criterion versions are essentially always the best available. I've been a dedicated customer of theirs for years now; Criterion is one of the very few companies out there that treat films as they should be treated.

Unfortunately, I don't think Criterion sells their products in the UK, but importing them shouldn't be much of a problem; from what I've read online, I understand that most UK TVs support NTSC. Importing UK DVDs is a much bigger pain for us Americans, since virtually none of our TVs supports PAL. sad

For those interested, the web address is:

www.criterion.com
Reply: Brandon
Thanks, that's great news. I ordered Schrader's Mishima from Amazon for 200 dollars (!!) a couple of years ago, but after a few weeks they said they couldn't fulfill the order. From the extracts on YouTube, it looks very good, and the insistent, repetitive Philip Glass music nicely complements the monomaniac protagonist!
36 » Michael Staley           Date: 17.03.2008 Time: 15:07:04

Regarding the use of the present tense in narration of events that take place in the past, yes, it happens all the time in Japanese. My impression is that it happens even more frequently in Japanese than it does in English. Brandon, what examples of this did you see in "Patriotism"?

Giles, you're right. Michael Emmerich does talk about this issue in "Read Real Japanese Fiction." See, for example, the first note to the story 「神様」by Kawakami Hiromi. The sentence is くまにさそわれて散歩に出る "Having been invited by a bear, I set out on a walk." The event of setting out on a walk, as it turns out, takes place in the past, and yet the sentence here ends in the non-past form.
Reply: Michael
Thanks for this note.
35 » Giles Murray           Date: 16.03.2008 Time: 19:38:16

On the subject of other short stories to read (Brandon and Bernhard!!)....

I am told by James, one of the earlier contributors to this bulletin board, that when at Cambridge he was made to read "Patriotism" in a pair with Oe Kenzaburo's "Seventeen," a short story which came out in the same month and deals with the theme of patriotism, but in a very different way. The description below comes from John Nathan's first-class biography of Mishima.

"That same month [January 1961], the twenty-five-year-old novelist Kenzaburo Oe published in another magazine a portrait of a fascist as a young man called "Seventeen," which was every bit as sardonic as "Patriotism" was solemn. In fact "Seventeen" was a brilliant and vicious attack on precisely the values that "Patriotism" exalted. The seventeen-year-old hero is a paranoid, convinced that people need only see "the pallor of his face and the cloudiness of his eyes" to perceive that he is a "chronic masturbator." The though fills him with homicidal rage; he want to "kill them, everyone of them, with a machine gun." But he cannot stop masturbating, because he needs the "sense of power" he experiences on ejaculation. The rest of the time he feels impotent in the face of "others" and of "eternity." When he hears for the first time in physics class about "infinity" and a "World of nothingness" he loses consciousness, soiling himself as he crumples to the floor. And he is sickened with fear at the thought of death, of having to endure nothingness "eternally a zero." One day a friend takes him to hear a rightist rant from a soapbox. Until then he has always wanted to be on the Left, "because it felt better." But as he listens he understands suddenly that the "enmity and hatred he required to hold his own against the world" can only come from the Right. He joins the Imperial Way Party." (Copyright John Nathan)

If anyone is interested in reading this story in Japanese, it's in a collection called SEITEKI NINGEN (性的人間) published by Shincho Bunko (新潮文庫). To find it on Amazon Japan input one of the following ISBN numbers.

ISBN-10: 4101126046
ISBN-13: 978-4101126043

Maybe this is the story that the anti-Mishima faction should read! (It's available in English under the title "Seventeen and J: Two Novels.") John Nathan himself defected from Mishima to Oe, choosing to translate Oe's "A Personal Matter" in preference to Mishima's (still untranslated) 1964 novel "Silk and Insight," after he'd done "The Sailor who Fell from Grace with the Sea." The excuse he gave (again I'm quoting from the biography) is endearingly honest and easy to empathize with: "The style seemed so rich, I don't think I could make it work in English."
wink
34 » Brandon      South Carolina     Date: 16.03.2008 Time: 18:38:10

Nice to be back. I think I haven't posted in a while because I've spent all my time online following the tight democratic race--definitely the most exciting presidential campaign in my (rather short) lifetime. But on to Japanese...

I have a question for you regarding Japanese usage in general. Do you notice that the Japanese don't seem to adhere very strictly to the past tense when writing about the past? I know that in western languages, it is common (and has been since antiquity) to use the present tense for vivid narration of past events, and this may be practiced in Japanese to some extent. I'll try to find some specific examples within the next few days.
Reply: Brandon,
Yes, the book I'm translating right now moves between past, present and historic present (as we used to call it in Latin class!). There's a note about this issue somewhere in Michael Emmerich's "Read Real Japanese Fiction." I'll see if I can mobilize Michael Staley, our editor, on this subject.
33 » Giles Murray      Tokyo     Date: 16.03.2008 Time: 15:30:51

If anyone is interested in seeing The Stranglers' song "Death&Night&Blood," which was inspired by both Mishima's "Confessions of a Mask" and his actual suicide, you can find several versions on YouTube.

This is from 1978, the palmy days of punk rock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0UvR3jKmRc

And this one is from 2006. The singer is the same JJ Burnel, the French bassist, but nearly 30 years older now. I suspect that Mishima was more famous in France in the 1970s, hence Burnel's selecting Mishima as the subject for his song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no22zLxWlpU

And while we're at it, here's the opening of Paul Schrader's biographical film!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay0rRP9fqGQ




rolleyes